John Lydon treated a woman with disrespect on national television. But does that mean he hates women?
The trouble began when Tuesday night's episode of The Project crossed to Lydon backstage at a Brisbane venue for an interview, and panelist Carrie Bickmore interrupted one of his rants to ask him a question about Margaret Thatcher.
"Hey, hey, hey, missus," Lydon hissed. "Shut up. Whoever you are, shut up. Shut up. Shut up. Now, listen — when a man is talking do not interrupt."
Bickmore attempted to apologise, and Lydon responded with more hostility: "Stop it. You sound like one of them dreadful loud birds I don't like. OK? You be polite."
Bickmore told Lydon his comments were offensive, to which he essentially said, 'I know you are, but what am I?' (He actually said: "So are you when you do that — you've got to learn what manners and respect is.")
The cringeworthy trainwreck ended when a deluded Lydon told the panel, "You're done, alright, and I done ya."
When stopped by reporters at an airport yesterday, Lydon put the problem down to his earpiece, explaining, "Yeah, there were a lot of people shouting at once and I couldn't quite make out who was what ... My only enemies are governments and institutions, certainly not women. I've been married for 30 years."
He went on to specifically deny accusations of misogyny: "Some really silly and idiotic words were being used since then. I'm not a misogynist, I didn't know if it were males or females on the other end. They all just sounded like hyenas and you have to tell the hyenas to shut it from time to time."
He wrapped up by urging people to "look at the real details of my life, my political stances and what I believe in, my caste, my creed, my culture — argue with me on those bases and you'll find that I'm flawless, faultless, blameless and handsome."
He issued more or less the same defence in a formal statement today: "I am the enemies of governments and institutions, certainly not women. I've been married to one for 30 years. We love each other."
I spent 90 minutes on the phone with Lydon a couple of weeks ago — not a long time, in the grand scheme of things, but certainly longer than the time he spent on The Project, or that abortive Red Symons interview, or any other interviews I'm aware of from this Australian tour. Clearly, that one conversation doesn't make me any sort of authority on the man.
But for what it's worth, I don't think Lydon is a misogynist. I think he's simply an irritable, self-important blowhard with an aversion to technology and a temperament far better suited to print interviews than TV or radio spots.
I say this because, in some ways, I could relate to Bickmore's experience. When Lydon picked up the phone for our interview, he berated me for running late (in reality, his last interview had gone over time, and the calling card provided by the tour publicist was still in use when I first called).
He would routinely cut me off in the middle of asking a question so he could go on a rant that tangentially related to something we had discussed two or three questions ago, if it related to anything at all.
He was in love with the mythology of Johnny Rotten, trotting out many of the same lines — that his only enemies are governments and institutions; that his caste, his creed, his culture wouldn't allow otherwise — he's used to defend himself in the wake of the Bickmore interview.
In much the same way that he referred to Bickmore as "missus", which no doubt set off misogyny alarm bells for some viewers, he seemed to think my proper name was "fella".
He seemed completely averse to modern technology, refusing to even entertain the idea of using Kickstarter to fund his independent releases — "I don't find it too healthy, and I don't quite know who's in control" — and mentioning how glad he was that we were talking on the phone rather than "internetting" each other.
He was also an absolutely fascinating interview subject, and I found it completely worth navigating his quirks and eccentricities to discuss music, politics and life with one of the more prominent figures in 20th century pop culture. Other writers, male and female, have had the same experience over the last few weeks. Tellingly, we didn't have the burden of reining him in for a three-minute spot or a live audience.
So, no, I don't think John Lydon hates women. I do think that inviting him on to your television or radio show, regardless of your gender, is a disaster waiting to happen, but that's never hurt anybody's ratings, has it?
(I also think that decrying Lydon as a has-been who hasn't done anything since The Sex Pistols says more about the speaker's ignorance of PiL than it does about Lydon, but that's a whole other thing.)
Early on in my interview with Lydon, I asked him why — at this late stage of his career, with his legacy firmly sealed — he still subjected himself to so many interviews. His response is appropriate to share now.
"Well, I've always enjoyed having a good chat with the press," he said. "Sometimes it's volatile, but you know, shit happens and you live."
